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Something to think about - Habemus plus vis computatoris quam Deus
Ramblings of a Unix ronin
Something to think about

In 1974, Palestinian terrorists launched an attack into Israel which culminated in them taking more than 115 hostages in the Netiv Meir elementary school, 105 of them children.  They then proceeded to issue demands for the release of 23 terrorists being held by Israel, or they would kill the hostages.  When elements of the Golani Brigade stormed the building, the terrorists did indeed try to kill all of their hostages, using grenades and automatic weapons.  The siege ended with 25 hostages dead (22 of them children), and 68 injured.

This is not greatly dissimilar to the numbers of dead and injured in Sandy Hook, CT.

What have we, in the US, done in response to school shootings?

We have declared our schools to be "gun free zones", thus guaranteeing that our schools and their students are defenceless in the face of an attack.

Has this worked?

Don't look to me to tell you. Open any newspaper, turn on any news channel, and you tell me whether it's worked.

What did the Israelis do in response to Ma'alot?

Israel instituted a program in which volunteer school personnel, parents, and grandparents received special training from the civil guard, and were seeded throughout the schools armed with concealed 9mm semiautomatic pistols.

Since then, there has not been one successful mass murder at an Israeli school.  NOT.  ONE.  Every single attempt has been very rapidly ended by the armed defenders placed in the schools, with minimal injuries among the innocent.

Think about it.  Then tell me which approach to preventing massacres in schools makes more sense.

I'll wait.

(Footnote:  The worst incident which I am aware of at any Israeli educational facility since 1974 is the shooting at the Mercaz Harav, a private yeshiva or seminary in Jerusalem, in 2008.  There were initially no armed responders in the facility when the attack began; the first armed responder, a captain in the IDF, entered the building six minutes after the first call for help, and he and a part-time student were engaging the attacker with gunfire three minutes after that.  Despite firing an estimated 500-600 rounds of ammunition from an AKM rifle, the Palestinian attacker succeeded in killing only eight students, with 11 more wounded.  The yeshiva was not a public school and was not covered by the program previously mentioned.)

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Current Location: Gilford, New Hampshire

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perspicuity From: perspicuity Date: December 17th, 2012 12:29 am (UTC) (Link)
the response to this i hear is "you would turn our schools into prisons"

yup. i would. though, they're not prisons. the inmate come and go, are protected, and kept from harm. oh, no free health care ;)

docstrange From: docstrange Date: December 17th, 2012 03:31 am (UTC) (Link)
Point out in return that they want to turn all of society into a mental institution.
mr_spock From: mr_spock Date: December 17th, 2012 03:43 pm (UTC) (Link)

What I've been posting on Yahoo! News . . .

The following was in a newsletter that I got from Oathkeepers.org shortly after the Connecticut school shooting, and I've been posting it all over the Yahoo! news forums (on every shooting-related news article that comes up) ever since:

The Federal Government is Guilty Accomplice in School Shooting in Newtown Connecticut (via OathKeepers . org)

There has been a horrendous mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. At this time, 27 people are reported dead, most of them children.

This shooting is yet another tragic example of the failed, grotesque insistence on helpless victim zones where any crazed gunman can be assured of a large number of disarmed, undefended, helpless victims, all crammed into one place, where he can kill many children before an armed defender arrives from elsewhere. It is disturbing and sick that the federal government so hates the right of the American people to bear arms, and so hates their natural right to self defense, that the government insists on making them helpless, disarmed victims for anyone who cares to kill them. And in this case, all of the teachers and staff were willfully disarmed by the Federal Government, by force of law and threat of #prison, to ensure that they would be disarmed and incapable of saving the lives of the children entrusted to their care.

That makes the Federal Government complicit in the deaths of these children, and in fact an accessory to their mass murder, by forcibly disarming (with the very real threat of prison) all the teachers, all the staff, and any parent who may have been on school property. That stupid law guaranteed the shooters would meet no immediate armed resistance, which is exactly what is needed to stop such an attack.

In such a shooting (as in every criminal attack), seconds count, and the people best positioned to stop the attack are the people on the scene - the intended victims and/or their care-takers. In this case, that would mean the teachers and staff of the school, and also the parents, who should have the ability to save the lives of their own children as they take them to and from school.

That said, I like your post better. It sticks to "cause and effect" and doesn't engage in any hard "make-wrong". Simple facts - well done!
fair_witness From: fair_witness Date: December 24th, 2012 11:52 pm (UTC) (Link)
Have you seen this?
unixronin From: unixronin Date: December 25th, 2012 09:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
I have now. Without having seen LaPierre's speech, I suspect it's a bit of a response to something that I at least wasn't saying. Obviously it's a part of a larger picture, but the fact remains it works. Saying that Israel is defending against ongoing terrorism instead of against occasional maniacs does not weaken the argument; defending against trained, determined terrorists is harder.
fair_witness From: fair_witness Date: December 25th, 2012 09:38 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'd argue that it's not so much a case of "it works" ("it" meaning the armed volunteers in schools) as it is a case of a number of things working together that work in the country implementing them. Australia's response to the Monash University shooting was arguably the exact opposite of the Israeli solution, and it's worked well for them, too.

I don't think school shootings can be solved with just one simple solution. I wish I could believe that; one of my younger sisters is an elementary school teacher, and she teaches at the same school her children currently attend. I don't want to wake up one morning and hear that she took a bullet for her kids. I don't even want to hear that she led her kids to safety. I want the most exciting news story for her school to be about a new library or new classroom equipment.

I think we'd be better off starting out by looking at the precursor behaviors of those who commit mass murder. "Precursor behaviors" is a phrase I'm choosing very deliberately, and NOT as a synonym for "diagnostic label." Diagnostic labels aren't always applied accurately, or in time to be useful. If we can determine the X plus Y (and however many other letters) that lead to the Z of someone becoming a mass murderer, looking at the actual facts of the past cases, then I think we'd be more likely to come up with a solution that works in this country. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of people to put their own biases and agendas aside, and we don't have a good recent history of exercising that sort of objectivity and teamwork.
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